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 Clive Roughley Part Two Interviewee: Clive Roughley, 1914 - 2002 Interviewer: Frank Heimans, Date of Interview: 14th January, 2002 Place of Interview: Roughley House Transcription: Catherine Sapir, June, 2006 |
Now, there’s something I’m very, very proud of.
1998 Citizen Award, Australia Day.
The Council nominated me. I knew nothing about it until they come up and told me I had it and they gave it to us on Australia Day, it was awarded to me. We had a wonderful day then they gave me that other one.
Which is a Community Service Award.
Yes. Because I gave this to the pleasure of the public, not commercial. Now, there’s grandfather.
James Roughley 11 1829-1908. He lived quite a while, didn’t he?
That’s James, that’s the grandfather. There’s dad up there. There’s me trophies.
This room here you said is the dining room, so is this where the family used to have their dinner?
This is where we used to sit in front of the open fire.
What sort of things do you remember that happened in this room Clive?
Lots of things. Christmas was a big, big turnout. Relations would all turn up. In those days there was no motor cars so they couldn’t travel too far, only pony and sulky. There’s the old kitchen. Out you go. Now this is not the original kitchen, dad built this on. The original one used to be out there. In those days it was an open fire so they had to have a kitchen away from the house so it wouldn’t burn the house down and when they got the stove they built this. That’s how the house was built see.
So they are the original ironbark slabs are they?
Yes. I told them I wanted that left open so people could see it.
Now
on the table there are lots of exhibits. Tell me a little bit about some
of them.
They were all used here. Butter churns, egg racks. We used to put the milk in the cupboard. That’s where we did well during the Depression years. We could grow our vegetables, we had our cow. You could make a few bob from growing stuff.
There is a thing that looks a bit like a vat with a handle on the table, what’s that Clive?
That’s an ice cream churn.
And who made the ice cream?
Oh well, we had our own cream from the cow, a bit of ice, wind him round and round and we’d make our ice cream. That used to be the boys’ room. We turned it into boys’ room and girls’ room you see and where I sleep used to be the girls’ room and the boys were upstairs and in summertime they must have slept on the verandah because the heat up there would cook you. I slept on the verandah for years.
How many girls were upstairs in the girls’ bedroom?
I forget what was in dad’s family. There was a mob of them. By gees there was a lot. A couple of them turned into Parsons. One of the cousins he was a Superintendent official, that was T C Roughley and his father, he studied to be a Doctor also to be a Parson, he finished up down in the fruit markets. By god he could fight too, old Johnny Roughley. When he died they gave him a write up in the paper about Honest John. Oh he had a great name. Big bloke. We are a funny family. Some of them were big. Now grandfather he was six foot something, yet dad wasn’t much bigger than me.
Clive what is your earliest memory. What is the first thing that you can remember?
Right back to when dad was alive. That was before I was 8. Yes, I can remember back then. I can just remember him. Only just.
How old was your dad when he died?
52.
And how old were you at that time?
I was under 8.
What do you remember about your dad?
Well I just remember what a wonderful father he was to me, you know. And all the friends he had, you know, there was always someone coming in to see him. He was liked by everybody. Wonderful worker. We all had to work in those days. There was no water laid on or anything, we all had the tanks and underground wells and things like that. And we had to have our own cows so that we could have milk, there was no milkman or anything like that. I’ve had a hard life but I’ve had a good life. I always talk about it meself, as I said there’s been many, many a time when I never had a shilling in me pocket and I thought if ever I could help anyone like I’d like to have been helped, I’d do it and I’ve carried it out.
What about school Clive, where did you go to school when you were younger?
Down here and I finished up at Granville Tech. That’s when the old train used to come out from Parramatta along the side of the road out to Castle Hill. I can remember when the old tram used to come from Parramatta to Castle Hill.
How
long did it take on the tram?
I don’t know. I was a kid then. It seemed to be a long time.
Was it an electric tram?
Oh no, steam. There was no electricity then. The lights and everything was all kerosene lamps.
Who used to light the lamps?
We used to have the lamps on the table. When you think back, I don’t know how many years ago since we got electricity. I know they used my place as a depot when they put the power in. They used to dump their wires and stuff up here. Before that it was all kerosene lamps, open fires. I think we seen the best of Australia.
What was the spirit like among the people in those days. Were they helpful to each other?
Oh yes. If anything went wrong, everybody turned up to help.
What about in times of need like bushfires and dramas like that?
If anybody was in trouble everyone turned up to help, you know. There was never an offer of money or anything like that. If that had been offered it would have been insulting.
Were there many people that used to come to the house to sell goods, like pedlars and people like that?
Oh yes, we had hawkers around here.
Do you remember any of them?
Oh yes, I remember them coming around with their horse and carts. Our meat used to be delivered with a horse and cart. The bread.
Did you have your own cows here?
Oh yes.
And did you milk them yourself?
I used to milk them. I had cows up to a few years ago. Later on when, all that where the places are the other side of me orchard, the irrigation area beat us and by the time you paid wages, commission and cartage there was nothing left, so anyway I took em out and I went in for cattle. I used to buy and sell cattle. I would rent paddocks around the district. Oh, I’ve done a lot of varied things. Been out the back country a few times. Been all over the place.
Tell me a little bit about your mother, Clive.
She was only tiny. She was deaf. We’ve inherited this from the Hudson family. The sister was deaf, the second brother was deaf now mine’s got worse. Oh well at 87 what can you expect.
You’re doing pretty well Clive.
What sort of a character did your mother have. What sort of a person was she?
Wonderful. Liked by everybody. All this was her garden. She had a most beautiful garden.
I’d like to hear a little bit more about your ancestors, about the first ones who came out, the convicts. Tell me, you go right back to 1817 when he was sentenced, Joseph and his son James. Tell me a little bit more about those.
Well I don’t know a great lot really but the convict stockade was down the bottom of the hill at Old Castle Hill Road. I know they were sent there. (Note: This was after the convict stockade - Government Farm - was closed in 1811). Don’t know what happened about the great grandfather, Joseph and then he was sent to Newcastle. When he come back he had a few head of cattle and so forth. Then he bought this from Mobbs and he dug all the timber out with a mattock, shovel and axe and they cut all these slabs and everything on the place. Anyway that old shed down there, used it. They bought it up here for a packing shed but he had another roof put on it. Ten to one that Mobbs built that shed.
What’s it used for now?
Just storage. When I had the chooks that’s where I used to keep me feed and I had me feed mixers and everything in there.
Your ancestors, Joseph and James, do you know what they did for a living in England before they came out here?
Oh, they worked at the cotton mills in Lancashire. That’s where they got caught for pinching fivepence worth of material and they got seven years jail out of it.
Not
a great deal of theft was it, fivepence worth, even in those days was
it?
Well what happened was, everything was done by hand. I believe the cotton machines come in from America and most of these people were out of a job.
What was the ship they came out on to Australia?
I forget now. It would be in the book ("A Loftier Race: the Roughley family, Pioneers of Dural" by June and Ken Roughley was used as a resource for this interview). There’s a copy of the charge sheet, there’s a copy of the discharge and everything in there.
I think your great, great grandfather and your great grandfather came out on the Tottenham, the ship wasn’t it?
Tottenham, that’s it.
That was 1818.
That’s a long time ago, isn’t it.
I think so. You go back a long way.
In the olden days, people used to be quite ashamed of saying that they had convict origins. How did you react to this?
Now we’re proud. Well that’s how they colonised the country anyway.
How long has it been since your family, the Roughley family, settled in this district? How long have they been here?
Ever since they came from England. Once they closed down the turnout in Old Castle Hill Road they had properties and the Government took the properties away, losing money, that’s how grandfathers came out here and bought this.
What did Joseph do for a living. Your great great grandfather Joseph Roughley, what did he work at?
I haven’t been able to fathom that out, just really what happened to him, but he left his family in England and he died out here but I don’t know where he was buried.
This house, where we are now, The Pines, had another name earlier didn’t it?
Eglantine House. That was the name of one of the daughters, she got herself in a bit of bother. With that, the old grandfather, a very staunch old bloke, changed the name of the place from that to The Pines. Anyway she married, not the best, but before he died he relented. He had the money and set her up. I can remember her coming here, only about once or twice. She was my dad’s favourite sister.
When you said she ran into a bit of trouble, what did you mean?
Fell pregnant.
Who was the father?
It appears this bloke, so the story goes, his wife was pregnant and he begged grandfather for (?) to go down and look after him, look after the place because those days there was no hospital, they had the kids at home and while she was down there he must have done her over and when grandfather found out that she was pregnant that really tore things.
Did
it take a long time to clear the land around the house, do you think?
Oh wouldn’t it. Hard work too.
The pine trees are very important here aren’t they, in this particular piece of land. Who planted those trees?
Grandfather. I reckon he planted those trees and the fig trees down there, the same time as they built the house.
Can you describe those pines to me. What kind of variety?
Oh they are beautiful trees. They are Norfolk Island, Queensland Kauri, Tasmanian Box, Norfolk Island, Cook Island and another one, the big one there is a Hoop Pine. They mostly came from up the coast somewhere. We had a wedding here on Saturday, under the pine trees. That’s the sixth one I’ve put through. They like to come here and do it. Dear they were a nice couple.
Do you know where your parents met and married?
Well mum’s mother and father, they started the first shop - Bakehouse/Post Office - in Galston and that’s when dad must have met mum. I think they were only 18 when they got married, the two of them. Old mum worshipped dad right to the day she died.
What about brothers and sisters Clive, what do you remember about them?
My brothers and sisters.
Yes.
Oh, they’ve all passed on now, but it was mostly mum and I were here. We went through the Great Depression. How we got through I don’t know but she got us through.
Do you remember any more about the Depression days, how you used to live?
Oh it was shocking. Doctors and solicitors coming out here with suitcases with needles and pins and so forth trying to make a dollar. Camp under a tree and walk back weekend. She’d give them a feed and then we’d cry.
How did your parents take it, the Depression. How did they live through it?
Dad wasn’t alive then, there was only mum and I.
Who looked after the family then?
Mum and I. Just the two of us. There wasn’t anything fancy bought, and I was always taught and I’ve always lived up to it, that if you can’t afford it you do without it. That’s where I reckon I lost a lot of business with the honey business when the credit cards come in.
Now, you and your family all lived through the Second World War. Tell me a little bit about those days. Did it affect you in any way Clive, you and the family, the War?
The eldest brother was on the boats(?). No we just kept on farming. Even the last War I joined up and when they found out I was a farmer, I owned a property, they gave me an Honourable Discharge, sent me back. They said you’re worth more to us growing stuff than what you are going to be firing a machine gun, so that was the end of my war.
What about any of your brothers, did they enlist in the War?
The second brother, he was in the Air Force. First one, don’t know whether he was in the Second War or not, I don’t think so. He went through the First one and me sister she married an Australian, he was a returned bloke. They finished up at the Richmond River, miles away from here.
How important was religion in your family. Were you a religious people?
We’ve always been Methodists. Well really Wesleyans, they were. That’s our old Church down there opposite the shopping centre. When they sold it they moved the Church out to Galston and one of the cousins gained the ground from that on the understanding that it was never to be sold and it became the United Church. Now the old St Jude’s Church up here, grandfather gave them the ground for that.
How important was the Church as a sort of centre for communal activity. Tell me a little bit about the people who used to meet in the Church and what sort of things used to happen in the Church?
Oh gee. Well dad, they were very religious really. On a Sunday, all you ever did on a Sunday was feed and look after the stock, then I had to go to Sunday School and Church and Sunday afternoon would be in the pony and sulky and we’d go visiting somewhere or someone would be coming here. During the week, worked all the week and I worked on Sundays.
Give
me a sort of description of a typical day that you would have had as a
young man. What time did you get up in the morning?
Get up early, feed your horses. I contracted with horses for years. Get up and feed your horses, milk the cow then come up and have your breakfast. Then go down and harness up, you had to be on the job by seven. You had to work 'til five. They were hard days.
What about the good times that you used to have in those days.
Oh we had good times too. Go to a dance every Saturday night.
Tell me a little bit about how you met your first wife.
I met her through doing a job with the horses for her brother in law. She came from Hunters Hill and they had a farm up here where the nursery is at Engels and I used to do jobs for him with the horses and that’s how I met Viney.
What did she do there?
It was her sister’s. She used to come up to her sister.
So was it love at first sight Clive?
It was.
Can you describe Viney for me, what she looked like?
Everybody that knew her loved her. She had a marvellous personality. Oh, when I started up I gave the contracting away, I started up me farm going and she used to come down and help me. Used to come up occasionally, then it was all the weekend then up here for the week and...
What happened to Viney. Why did she die?
Asthmatic heart.
Had you known that when you married her?
It started just after we got married and got worse and worse and worse.
And the Doctors said they couldn’t do anything about it?
No. Those days they didn’t know much. She died in the old Parramatta Hospital.
What was the affect on you Clive after her death?
Never got over it.
How did you deal with all that Clive?
I was never bitter.
Clive, did you have any friends. Did you make friends easily as a young person?
I’ve always got friends here. Me Doctor was in this morning. We’ve been together for thirty odd years, and then Joe, another bloke, comes in from the Council and I’ve got Matt and I got all the different volunteers over here. There’s always someone here.
Clive, do you think fate has played a part in your life at all?
I believe in fate. If I had me time over I’d still farm. No the land’s in me blood and that’s it. Horses, dogs and chooks.
Tell me a little bit about the Dural area that you live in here. How has it changed, how has Dural changed since you have been here?
Oh it’s changed, yes. This used to be all orchards and farms. You don’t see that anymore.
Do you have any regrets at all Clive?
What about?
About your life, anything in your life?
No, no.
What part of your life have you enjoyed the most Clive?
I think all me life’s been pretty good. Having no father I had to learn how to help meself and how to do things on me own and I have always taken a pleasure in what I’ve been doing. Proud of what I’ve been doing and I think that makes the difference.
Tell me Clive, of all the inventions we have today, the telephone, the radio, all these things, which invention do you think has been the most useful as far as you are concerned?
I don’t think I can answer that because they’re all useful. Well you take the telephone, now me sights gone I can’t use the phone, I can’t see the numbers. Then you got the TV, you got the radio, yet with everything we’ve got I often wonder whether we was happy as what the older ones were.
Do you think you made any mistakes in your life Clive?
Mistakes? Yes. We all make mistakes. You learn by mistakes. That’s my idea anyway.
Which one do you think would have been your biggest mistake?
I don’t know, I don’t know. Can’t answer it. The biggest disaster was when Viney died.
What’s been your greatest victory do you think Clive?
Greatest Victory?
Yes.
Making good. I don’t owe anybody anything and I lent a lot of people money which I’ll never get back, but I helped them out and I got pleasure out of helping.
What is the most important thing for you now at this stage of your life Clive?
What I’m doing, I get pleasure out of seeing the people in, enjoying themselves and the company that I get. There’s always someone dropping in. Well she came over from the Tourism with cake for me just now, those sort of things, you know. Being thought of I think is the main thing.
And
how do you think people will think about you after you’ve gone?
Think about me?
Yes, what will they say about you do you think?
Wonderful, wonderful.
There are not many people who would give away their entire house to a community. I think you would have a special earned place in society, don’t you. What do you feel?
Oh I think well, I can’t take it with me and as far as the Roughley name is concerned it will go on while the house is here. There’s other generations coming up and they get pleasure out of coming here. Oh no, I think I did the right thing, well and truly. Now listen, we’re about to give it up.
OK we are just ending. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that we haven’t talked about in the interview. Is there anything else you want to put on record?
I get all the help and encouragement from Council. They make a fuss of me, they treat me as a friend, they’d do anything for me. Oh no, I’m quite happy with the set up.
OK thank you very much Clive for this interview, we really appreciate it on behalf of the Council.