Interviewer: Frank Heimans,
            for Baulkham Hills Shire Council

Date of Interview: 18 Dec 2006

Transcription: Glenys Murray, April 2007

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This is a recording with Margaret and John Brown inside the gymnasium at the William Thompson Masonic School. Now tell me what is the significance of this place here?

Well I tell you what looking at it now it’s much smaller then I remember it but in 1953 at an annual dinner we announced our engagement and the MC for the night was our best man at our wedding.

Gymnasium exterior front 2004 (now Building 2 Stamford Hall)

It happened in this hall.

So this hall has rather special significance for you?

It does.

What else did you do in this hall?

Exercises, sports, climbed ropes they’ve disappeared that was our regular Saturday and some games and things.

But pre war we came over here for lessons in gymnasium. Mr Baxter was our gym master.

So what sort of things did you do in here? What kind of exercises?

Oh they used to have the vaulting horse and parallel bars for the main things that they had in this confined space.

Was there a big accent on sports and physical fitness?

Oh yes on fitness yes, not so much on the actual sports, we didn’t play very many team sports but it was more on exercises and that.

Any particular difficult exercises you did here John?

I think climbing up the ropes to the beams was the hardest thing you could get. There was a knack in it.

What about you Margaret?

We had to do that too, we didn’t get very far.

Gymnasium interior 2004

Well with us it was a lesson during the school time, but with John it was Saturdays.

What was he like, Mr Baxter?

Ex army. Does that tell you all?

Did he expect a lot from his students?

Obedience yes.

Perfection.

Did he turn out any champions?

No

Any of the kids ever make it to the state competitions anything like that?

We didn’t go into any state competitions, not those years. Too long ago, not many schools did.

So how many years are we talking about the things that you remember about this hall then?

1939 to 1947.

I can only recall after the war of being down here.

Well that’s further back than most people can. What’s sort of uniform did you wear for sports?

Well the girls in sewing class had to make a big pair of bloomers that went from their waist to their knees right so when we came to sport we put those over the top and we tucked our dresses in that. So we used to have these great big bloomers to play our sports in.

You had plenty of room at least?

Oh yes yes.

What about you John what sort of sport’s uniform did you have?

Oh much the same we did everything in what we had, same uniform, work and play in the school.

We’re now outside on the avenue of the memorial trees. What do you know about those Margaret?

We called this our back drive and every tree, the trees go all the way down and every tree was planted for a NSW Mason that died during World War One and now they’ve put up a memorial with all their names on at the front which is very new it’s not finished being done. (Actually this was completed in early 2007).

Avenue of memorial trees 2004

They really don’t look much different but yes they have grown haven’t they?

Yes

They were I’d say halfway to what they are now.

Do you know what kind of trees they are?

Brush Box.

Initially didn’t they have a name on each tree?

They had a name on every tree which has disappeared.

That’s a shame isn’t it? It would have been nice…..

Now the names are on the memorial, they are there on the memorial.

What sort of activities do you recall doing outside here where we’re standing now?

None we didn’t very often other than marching into the gymnasium this wasn’t an area that we were ever in outside that classroom there was a little lawn bit and we did go out and have stories read to us there but not here.

That driveway was mainly for the deliveries and services. We didn’t go anywhere near this driveway.

Outside former classrooms in 2004 (now Buildings 4-5)

Where are we in the middle of the classrooms, in the area between several classrooms.

Can you describe what was here at the time?

Well it’s very, very similar to what it is now and the first one on your left there was kindergarten one, two and three, your next one was fourth class. That was Miss Cox’s class, Miss Melluish’s class,Fifth class was Mr Clovier, and don’t ask me after that. Sixth class Mrs Hudson if I do remember correctly and I don’t know that one and the headmaster’s class was here and up there to my left was where the girls went and did sewing and typing.

Including you?

No, no I didn’t go back to school after I was nine here, not schooling.

Now we’re inside a building that the girls did their sewing lessons and used to make those bloomers that I was talking about earlier and also where they learnt typing and shorthand all business the seniors. In here, we’ve gone back one room Mr Huxley used to bring every class independently over the years and mainly did mental arithmetic with them.

Inside a former classroom in 2004

Did you expect it to be here still?

Well you never know it was one of those railway clocks, big clock so we could see the numbers.

Where we’re standing now can you describe where we are?

Well we’re just outside the hospital and the first room I can see I can remember if you had a little cut finger or a sore on your hand and you wanted to come down to the nursing sister to be attended to you queued up right here on the verandah and went in and saw the nurse. Further along are the wards I think I was in that ward at the front there it’s a lovely view and very peaceful anyone could get well in a place just here you could.

Do you remember the Doctor’s name on duty?

No, the nurse was Sister Williams.

Former hospital in 2004 (now Building 33)

Was she nice?

Lovely, lovely yes Sister Williams wore the sisters long white veil I don’t think I ever saw her without a veil on.

Were you ever yourself in this hospital?

I was in the ward there to the right of the building. At the moment the two stools that are on the front I would say came out of our assembly room. That’s what we used to sit on in assembly.

Oh those two big wooden benches? You recognise them?

Yes we both do.

John we’re standing outside the hospital as you know. Tell me a little about Sister Williams what was she like?

A very matronly woman, a big woman always immaculately dressed in her uniform, very strict but she had a heart of gold.

John what’s the significance about this place here?

Our regular Saturday morning dose of Epsom Salts, we all marched down here queued up in front of the hospital the sister came along with a large jug of Epsom Salts, gave us a cupful and a boiled lolly to get rid of that horrible taste.

Former staff cottage beside hospital in 2004 (now Building 32)

No I avoid that like the plague, not good memories of what follows.

The cottage beside the hospital that we’re passing now was Mrs Cox’s home and Mrs Cox was the kindergarten, first, second and third class teacher and the librarian. She lived in this cottage.

Now where are we here Margaret?

We’re standing in the back drive not very far near the old tea rooms and on the right hand side of that is where the kitchen was and the dining room of the junior boys and all the girls. It has been burnt down I don’t know when. Do you know how many years ago? A few years ago and only the administration block is still standing. They have since built a hall a very nice hall and it’s called Thompson Hall in its place. Behind the kitchen years ago we had a filtration plant and it filtered all the water, I remember that.

So can you tell me how you marched to church and where you marched?

We all came up near the administration building in the front and the boys then came down and joined us and we marched along the front drive to Seven Hills Road, up Seven Hills Road until Windsor Road and turned right along to the Trinity Church and we all marched there. The seniors, the little ones couldn’t march that far, all marched there every Sunday.

John can you tell me about your musical exploits at this school?

For a short interval I was in the band playing the drum, but I was a little too adventurous and put an extra roll into the beat which had the deputy superintendent at that stage a little bit concerned but he didn’t know who it was until one day I wasn’t in the band going up to the church and he realised it was me making the extra roll so I was excommunicated and out of the band.

Admin Building late 1940s (now Building 14)

They were lovely white marble steps and I helped to keep them white because I used to have to clean them with Ajax to keep them white. Near those steps there’s an office the first room on your left as you go in and I worked there for quite some months before I left school and as the senior boys walked down the driveway every afternoon I had a pretence of going to the window so I could wave at my favourite one as he walked past.

What did you do for three months there?

Answered the telephone, typed letters for Mr Cropley, took shorthand.

So was that just before you left the school?

Yes for about three months I wasn’t old enough to leave school so instead of still going to college I worked in the office.

John how do feel about the Council’s role in managing this property?

I think its good that the Council did take over the school and agreed to maintain the school in its original form basically and not remove any of the buildings so that we still have our heritage as far as our earlier childhood. We were disappointed early in the peace that the Council hadn’t maintained any of the buildings but they are doing a great job now in bringing it back into shape as best as possible. We are appreciative that they took it over, if private enterprise had have sold it they would have probably bulldozed the whole lot of it and made a complete housing estate out of it and everything would have been lost as far as our childhood so it’s great.

Front Drive early 1950s

Well we’re standing looking at the front driveway just before the administration block and there’s no palm trees when we were here before there were palm trees right from the front gate right to Junction Road. They do exist from the administration building towards senior house but the other ones have gone. There are no gardens in front of Faithful and I’m actually standing where there was the most gorgeous azalea bush at the end of Faithful cottage and just outside the bathroom windows. There’s no path where we used to march down to have our shoes inspected every morning that’s gone, so it has changed quite a bit.

Now Margaret we’re standing inside your cottage here, that’s Faithful cottage (Building 11) isn’t it? Tell me about this place.

We’re standing in A dormitory and I’m actually standing on the spot where my bed was and in this side there would have been when I was little seven beds along here with a stool between each bed and on that stool as we got undressed our clothes were folded up for the next day on that stool with our shoes underneath. To the left here is our bathroom. In it we had two baths and a shower and toilet and then on the right was all lockers that our Sunday best were in. Each of us had a locker along that side in the bathroom.

A former cottage bathroom area with old lockers in 2004

Tell me about some of the things that happened on this bed that you are standing on?

Oh nothing I was a good girl that was when I was very little, it wasn’t until I went to the B dormitory that I was a bit of a torment.

So what sort of things would you do in the B dormitory?

Put millipedes in the prefect’s bed, put holly under her sheets, short sheeted her bed, threw cold water on a winter’s morning over in the bathroom and admitted that it was just a glass of water that I’d dropped. We all did things like this.

Did you get punished for that?

For throwing the water over the prefect yes, I was sub prefect at the time and I was demobbed.

Why did you pick on the prefect?

She was my best friend and I’d known her for a long time. She was there pre war with me and after the war and I used to see her during the war. So yes we were friends.

Can you tell me her name?

Shirley Lob, Shirley Pym that is now.

Do you still see her?

Occasionally, yes yes.

Do you still throw cold water over her?

No I wouldn’t do that.

Now I’ve moved to the other side of the dormitory and again there were seven beds along this side. So altogether there were fourteen beds in this room. A1 I can’t remember, A2 was Patty Pocket I can see the girls but I can’t remember their names in all of them. Eleanor Silverlock was in one my sister was in this one when she was first little in 7; Shirley was in 8; Patty Pocket was in 10.

Where did the matron sleep?

There was a room between the two cottages just outside our dormitory there was a little room there that was her room and she slept in there. She used this bathroom, we didn’t use this bathroom. We used the shower, the toilet in the junior but we went up to the seniors to have our baths. This was the matron’s private bathroom.

What sort of lights were they on the ceiling in those days?

Not like this and we used to have pretty ceilings that had roses and very old fashioned and I used to lie in bed when I wasn’t allowed to talk and count all the roses and the prettiness of the ceiling they’ve all gone.

A former cottage dormitory in 2004

So how many girls were in this room?

Fourteen before the war and twelve after the war I was right there.

So this is where you slept after the war is it?

Yes this is where I slept after the war.

Do you remember some of the girls that were in this room as well?

Patty Pocket that was down there with me she was here, Winnie Pocket, Shirley Lob was up here with me same as down there, Eleanor Silverlock, my sister Betty, Elaine Knight, Betty Doust. How many is that round about seven or eight?

Is your sister Betty younger or older than you?

Older, yeah.

Did she have a role to sort of look after you?

No she was sort of too close I had the older girls.

How did she take to living here?

Same as me we all enjoyed it.

Was there anything that made you scared in this room perhaps when you were very small?

No cause we had each other and we had a heater after the war there but before the war we had a boiler outside those windows and it had to be stoked up with coke every morning and built up and it used to do our hot water.

Old cottage bathtub in 2004

My sisters at one stage I know it was her job.

It could be dangerous work for a very small child couldn’t it?

Oh well she was eleven not so small.

Were there ever any accidents that you recall?

No, no we were all very careful. But eleven year olds in those days were much older than eleven year olds are today. I mean I finished school at thirteen, finished my schooling at thirteen. Now your not are you you’re eighteen, nineteen.

As you walk out of the senior dormitory to the left is the sitting room. In that sitting room there was two quite big tables with chairs all the way round and that is the room we did our homework in. Very quietly because there was still no talking but all homework had to be finished by nine o’clock because lights were out by nine. As you finished your homework you’d go and have your bath and get into bed. In the sitting room as well there was a Pianola. Each cottage that’s the ten cottages plus senior house had a Pianola and on rainy days we used to come in and play music and have a sing song.

What was the temperature like here in this room?

I don’t remember ever being hot, it was a bit cool, we had the heater on anyway in the warm weather but we used to run from our bed to the shower in the next to nothing. Swing a towel around us but I think at that age temperature doesn’t worry.

Can you tell me what the courtyard used to look like?

As we walk onto the back verandah we had a area there with our lockers, wooden lockers, each child had one and in the daytime our leather slippers were in there at night time our shoes. We didn’t ever wear our shoes inside because it was polished wood and kept very nice. There was boot polish out there so that is where we sat along those lockers and polished our shoes. Behind the lockers on our particular area we had a most gorgeous oleander bush and we used to watch the butterflies they used to have the little cocoons beautiful in the sun. Then the path went out further and we had a fountain, water fountain and over the fountain was the most gorgeous bougainvillea and along the columns of the back verandah there were roses planted. So there were Dorothy Perkins roses and other kinds too but we had the Dorothy Perkins pink one and they went right along the back verandahs the whole length of all the cottages. Every cottage had the bougainvillea over the fountains and they were the brilliant purple one so looking out it was so pretty and then we had the lawn and then gardens before the trees. So it was all very pretty.

Sounds a bit like paradise?

It was paradise.

Rose garden with cottages in background late 1940s

We’re back into the dormitories and on Thursdays and on Saturday mornings the beds were all moved. We moved them all to one end so that half the area was cleared and the floors were polished and then the beds were all moved back the other end and the other half was polished. Then out on the front verandahs which were red with black along the side they were polished every Saturday morning they were polished with red polish on the red and black boot polish on the black. The littlest ones for some reason were given that job. My eight year old Shirley Lob again used to put the polish on and Patty, Winnie and myself used to rub the polish off and that happened every Saturday morning.

Well it must have looked better than it does now?

Yes

Margaret, coming back here now how do you feel about it?

Well to see it in the state it is, I’m afraid it is a little disappointing because we looked after it so well. But that’s fifty years nearly - it’s over fifty years so you can’t expect buildings to be like they were then. We’re living not very far away from it and we pass by it nearly every day.

Balcombe Heights site map 2007

John, coming back here now after a space of some fifty or sixty years how do you feel about being here?

Still nice to see where you went to school and it’s still here like Margaret disappointing that it’s not quite the same as we left it but that’s understandable I guess. That’s progress or something but we still have fond memories of the place.

How important are those memories to you?

Oh very good, very strong a strong basis for work, how to get on with people, for marriage we both think the same which is a problem sometimes because she knows that I can do the washing up and cleaning and darn socks and all that type of thing so I don’t have an excuse not to do anything. It can be a bit hard sometimes but not really it’s a great basis for a marriage and fifty years down the track we’re still hanging in there so I think that’s a good advertisement for it all.

And you’re grateful to the Masons for having housed you here?

Very grateful indeed we just hope that we try and contribute towards the ongoing work of the welfare and we hope that it continues for years to come.

How important to you in your life has the period been that you were at the school because after all that was during your formative years and you were very young and impressionable so how important do you rate it?

Well it created a family for me and I still see my seniors when I was a little girl there I still see the girls that were in this dormitory as well as the juniors so it’s just one big family. It’s like seeing family all the time.